From a Stanford rowing athlete to one of the youngest General Partners (GPs) at global top-tier VC firm a16z Crypto, Jad Wahab’s rise shatters all Silicon Valley conventions. In an industry swept up in speculation and frenzy, he cuts through the fog of market cycles with the foundational ethos of a “cypherpunk” and a cold, quantitative perspective.

To Jad, blockchain is not a fleeting asset mania, but the “cloud computing moment” that traditional finance and Wall Street are currently undergoing—stablecoins reshaping trillions in settlements, decentralized networks breaking through AI compute and energy bottlenecks, and every underlying technological iteration quietly upending the old world’s distribution of interests. While most still debate price fluctuations, top capital has already bet on a infrastructure revolution spanning decades. In this long game between technological idealism and commercial reality, where do the next tenfold opportunities lie? What kind of person can build great products that transcend market cycles? This in-depth conversation will deconstruct the foundational mindset and endgame projections of its helmsman.

Originating at Stanford and Institutional Markets: From Rowing Athlete to a16z General Partner

Host: The entire world has been deeply transformed by the internet and computers; everything runs on code and networks, yet the underlying logic of the traditional financial system seems extremely disconnected, even insane. The significance of stablecoins and blockchain for the financial system and Wall Street is akin to what cloud computing was for the digital transformation of enterprise software. Information technology and financial markets are the two main pillars of the Western economy, and blockchain is the true convergence point of both. Its ultimate form must enable the general public to naturally run on blockchain when consuming financial or network services, coordinating all products with underlying protocols. When this industry truly succeeds, people won’t even specifically mention the word “cryptocurrency.”

Host: Joining us today is a16z Crypto’s newest General Partner, Jad Wahab. Welcome to the show!

Jad Wahab: Thank you, I’m very glad to be here.

Host: Today we’ll dive into your experience. You were recently officially promoted to General Partner, becoming one of a16z Crypto’s four GPs. Prior to this, you served as a Principal. But digging into your resume reveals that when you first joined a16z, you weren’t even on the Crypto team; you were an intern on the institutional Go-to-Market (GTM) team. How did you gradually move from a non-core, institution-facing role to today, where you’re deeply involved in this complex and wild cryptocurrency investment ecosystem?

Jad Wahab: I grew up in the suburbs of Philadelphia. In high school, my main hobby and sport was crew rowing, which was also one of the key reasons I ultimately attended Stanford University. When I first entered Stanford, I didn’t immediately focus on computer science. Although I wrote some basic programs as a kid, it was never the true center of my life. I attended a very traditional prep school on the East Coast that didn’t even offer computer science or formal programming courses.

After entering Stanford, I gradually developed an intense interest in cryptocurrency. Around my sophomore year, I started looking for summer internships. During my freshman and sophomore years, I worked as a research assistant in the Economics Department, studying cost-benefit analyses of nuclear power policies—a highly specialized field. During that time, I read numerous budget reports from the energy sector daily. Many raw data points were even recorded on paper documents, and my job was to organize and digitize them.

Host: Many don’t know about this background. You later championed a16z’s investment in Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks (DePIN), particularly the distributed energy project Daylight. It seems this traces back deeply to your early academic and research experiences.

Jad Wahab: Yes, I’ve always been deeply fascinated by the concept of “networks”—whether physical internet infrastructure, energy and power grids, or global financial settlement networks. Exploring network mechanisms tied together most of my academic interests during college and naturally became the direct gateway into the crypto space.

During my sophomore year, the university held a career fair specifically for student-athletes. Someone directed me to talk to Ben Gardner and Ronnie Harris, who were then part of a16z’s GTM institutional team. They were hiring two interns, with one slot reserved for a Stanford football player. I hit it off with them instantly, established a long-term connection, and since other teammates and friends were already on the team, I successfully secured the offer. I worked as an intern in the institutional GTM team at a16z over two summers and a full academic year in 2018.

While interning, my true fascination remained cryptocurrency and network protocols. I believed decentralized networks represented the future of the internet. So, I volunteered to assist the crypto team outside of my regular duties whenever possible. I was fortunate enough to work with Jesse Walden (now founder of Variant, then a Principal at a16z Crypto). By early 2019 or summer, Eddy Lazzarin also officially joined the team.

For a major project during my sophomore summer, I attempted to build a structured framework within the corporate GTM team to help traditional Chief Information Officers (CIOs) and institutional clients understand the roadmap of the crypto industry. At the time, most teams in the industry were building Layer 1 public chains, cross-chain bridges, and foundational network operating procedures. Very few were actually exploring decentralized application layers geared toward real-world business use cases or featuring economic incentive models.

My core question back then was: If the goal of blockchain is to host fully decentralized applications, then any app built on traditional centralized infrastructure cannot be truly decentralized. In reality, the internet’s foundation is highly centralized. Global networks rely heavily on a few Tier 1 telecom carriers and face strict sovereign government regulation. The network contains countless physical chokepoints, such as transoceanic submarine cable landing stations and core internet exchange points. Most people imagine the internet as a cloud floating in the sky, but it is firmly anchored to specific physical nodes on the ground.

Host: Absolutely. The public often perceives the internet as open and distributed, but over the past few decades, it has steadily trended toward centralized control. Many nations have built powerful national firewalls to tighten absolute control over information flows.

Jad Wahab: Exactly right. That pushed me to think deeper: Could we reconstruct underlying network routing protocols the way Ethereum designed decentralized incentive protocols? For example, could we build a decentralized IP protocol or BGP routing mechanism? To pursue this, I spearheaded a research project on decentralized network service providers. This project was later selected for a16z’s earliest Crypto Startup School (the precursor to the now multi-edition crypto accelerator CSX). That was roughly late 2019 to early 2020.

The Game Between Cypherpunks and Pragmatism: How Technological Revolutions Transcend Ideology

Host: Looking back at your promotion path is fascinating: from a non-crypto intern to a startup accelerator participant, then to Investment Principal, and now to GP leading the next wave of industry investments. You’ve accumulated a remarkably rare global panoramic perspective bridging institutions and academia.

Jad Wahab: I feel incredibly lucky that many coincidences converged at the right time. While studying at Stanford, I simultaneously worked as an intern and served as a teaching assistant for Professor Dan Boneh. Dan is a titan of modern cryptography, teaches core cryptography and blockchain systems courses at Stanford, and has long served as a research advisor for a16z. Dan is among the very best scholars in the field, and it was a massive honor to study under him.

Around graduation, instead of directly launching a commercial company, I brought my accelerator research project into the research team at Protocol Labs. Protocol Labs’ most famous project is Filecoin (a decentralized file storage protocol), and the team boasts exceptionally cutting-edge engineering and R&D capabilities. At the time, Filecoin’s mainnet was nearing completion, and the research team was exploring the company’s next long-term initiative. One project codenamed “Paddles,” co-developed with MIT, explored decentralized energy network mechanisms.

Coincidentally, Ali Yahya, a founding GP at a16z Crypto, studied alongside Protocol Labs founder Juan Benet in college and co-founded an early company with him. They are close friends and long-term academic partners. During my time at Protocol Labs, I collaborated closely with Head of Research Evan Miyazono and Juan to explore the construction of incentivized network layers.

When this research phase wound down, I was completing my fifth year of a joint degree program at Stanford. I was very clear that I wanted to root myself long-term in cryptocurrency, but unsure whether to continue incubating ventures academically or transition into full-time investing. Right around that time, Eddy Lazzarin, an Investment Principal who had been at a16z for two years, called me. He told me the team was scouting unconventional investors with technical and research backgrounds and asked if I’d be interested in interviewing for a full-time partner role. I almost immediately said yes.

Host: Wait a minute, this breaks the mold. It’s widely known that a core rule during a16z’s early days was: all principal investors and GPs had to be either highly successful serial founders or operators with executive experience at hyper-growth companies. You entered the investment team straight out of school with purely academic/internship background in your early twenties. This is extremely rare in traditional venture capital.

Jad Wahab: That’s correct. The industry typically seeks professionals in their late twenties or early thirties who have served as lead product managers or BD executives at star high-growth startups. My background is completely different.

Jad Wahab: During interviews, the team connected me with all our core partners. Looking back, previously scattered dots naturally aligned into a single thread: I worked closely with Stacy while interning; Dan Boneh gave me exceptionally high marks as my TA; when Ali sought Dan’s background check feedback, Dan said, “He is extremely efficient and reliable”; furthermore, my research outcomes alongside Evan and Juan at Protocol Labs gave the team deep insight into my technical chops. All this collective trust culminated in my official joining of a16z Crypto’s full-time investment team in late 2020. When Chris Dixon later announced my promotion to GP, he described me inside the team as being “omnipresent,” which is also recognition of my consistently high-frequency delivery over the years.

Host: In the crypto world, many people are just chasing profits, yet you consistently radiate the pure philosophical foundation of a “cypherpunk.” Where does this spiritual core come from? Why were you initially drawn so deeply into cryptocurrency?

Jad Wahab: This stems partly from my innate personality. I’ve always carried a bit of a rebellious streak; I’ve never been someone who blindly follows authority. The idea of reconstructing internet architecture—and even completely replacing the outdated, inefficient global financial services system—using pure mathematics, cryptography, and foundational open-source code held a fatal attraction for me. The philosophical concepts outlined in Satoshi Nakamoto’s whitepaper—“restricting sovereign currency hyperinflation through code, hedging against fiat depreciation, and constraining centralized power via technological covenants”—profoundly shook me intellectually.

I clearly remember spending Thanksgiving break at home in late 2017 playing the role of the “tech-savvy college student,” constantly being called by elders to fix Wi-Fi routers or configure new gadgets. Suddenly, my grandmother casually asked me, “Jad, I keep seeing Bitcoin on the news. Should I buy some?” Though I’d heard classmates talk about it, I hadn’t dug deeper. To answer her question, I downloaded and thoroughly read the Bitcoin whitepaper that very night. For the following entire week, I reread the paper daily, repeatedly simulating its decentralized ledger and proof-of-work consensus. That whitepaper became my true intellectual awakening.

My entry into this space has always been anchored by two core principles: first, a sincere commitment to non-sovereign hard money represented by Bitcoin and cypherpunk philosophy; second, an obsession with open-source decentralized network architectures. Blockchain is more than just open-source software. For the first time, it introduced a native economic incentive layer into open protocols, making permissionless, global decentralized collaboration networks commercially self-sustaining.

Host: That touches the core contradiction of the entire industry: the tension between cypherpunk idealism and commercial realism. How do you view the evolution of these two forces over the past few years?

Jad Wahab: There’s a famous satirical remark about libertarianism: “The good news is they’re often right; the bad news is they keep losing.” In many ways, this aligns with the development history of cryptocurrency over the past decade-plus.

Cypherpunks are absolutely right: fully decentralized, censorship-resistant systems possess irreplaceable resilience in technical robustness and philosophical purity, achieving lofty socio-ideological goals. But in the reality of free-market competition, the projects that achieve the largest-scale commercial success and mainstream adoption tend to be highly pragmatic. To become widely adopted, they inevitably compromise or sacrifice certain pure ideological demands.

This evolution is common in tech history, and the open-source software movement is the most vivid precedent. Today’s maintainers and developers of commercial open-source software operate on entirely different mental models than the first-generation followers of Richard Stallman and the Free Software Foundation (FSF) forty years ago. The modern Linux system powers the backend of over 90% of global cloud servers and mobile devices. Although the pure open-source movement conceded ideologically, it completely won the victory in the real world.

Any genuine political revolution or social movement requires a piercing, powerful ideology in its early stages to awaken the masses and break the monopoly of old regimes. However, resistance cannot remain confined to the streets forever; it must eventually transition to drafting charters, establishing institutions, and solving practical livelihood issues—as seen in both the American Revolutionary War and the French Revolution. Technological revolutions follow the same law: if a new technology cannot ultimately transform into highly efficient products that ordinary consumers use effortlessly every day, and fails to beat traditional solutions in cost and efficiency, it cannot achieve a qualitative leap.

The social contract of Bitcoin as a neutral store of value has been established and widely accepted. Meanwhile, an increasing number of blockchain protocols and applications emerging today no longer survive solely by peddling philosophical ideals; they genuinely reduce counterparty risk, platform misconduct risk, and fund settlement costs for users. Idealism and commercial pragmatism are like yin and yang—they are indispensable complements.

Investment Paradigms and Timing Philosophy: How Long-Term Capital Evaluates Foundational Founder Traits

Host: Around 2018, traditional Wall Street institutions discussing this technology frequently used a politically correct battle cry: “Blockchain, not Bitcoin.” Now, as an a16z Crypto GP managing a fund worth billions, how do you balance these two forces?

Jad Wahab: Naming the fund “a16z Crypto” inherently carries deep meaning. The term “crypto” encompasses two dimensions: it is the overarching category for cryptographic assets that construct native asset and wealth systems based on cryptography, detached from sovereign states or single corporate trust endorsements; simultaneously, it refers to the technological protocols that leverage native token economics to build entirely new decentralized internet services.

In the lifecycle of venture capital and technological innovation, “timing” dictates everything. Many applications that run smoothly today completely failed five to ten years ago because the underlying throughput, settlement latency, and exorbitant gas fees simply couldn’t support closed-loop commerce. Back then, networks were limited to Bitcoin and early Ethereum L1s, making transactions incredibly slow and expensive.

Today, we possess a mature Ethereum Layer 2 ecosystem, high-performance public chains like Solana capable of high concurrency and low latency, and brand-new zero-knowledge proof architectures. Data throughput has increased tens of thousands of times, network response times compressed to milliseconds, and individual transaction fees approaching zero. This structural leap in underlying infrastructure allows products to win mainstream markets purely through efficiency advantages, rather than relying solely on user frenzy around token financial speculation.

Host: Traditional VC is usually liquidity-constrained; equity raises typically take 7 to 10 years or more before exiting via IPO in public markets. In crypto, decentralized tokens often gain high secondary-market liquidity very early in a project’s lifecycle. How has this drastically different liquidity environment reshaped your investment time windows and decision-making logic?

Jad Wahab: That is indeed a highly unique structural characteristic of the crypto space. Traditional tech companies stay private longer largely due to mounting compliance disclosure burdens and ample capital support within traditional fundraising markets; whereas decentralized networks, to achieve global permissionless consensus coordination and validator economic incentives, often require issuing and circulating native assets extremely early after protocol launch.

Early public trading is a double-edged sword: on one hand, it provides founding teams with a powerful global capital formation tool right at the project’s infancy; on the other hand, prematurely exposing tokens to continuously fluctuating 24-hour public market quotes subjects undisciplined teams to massive external emotional interference and market pressure daily.

Precisely because of this, this high-liquidity environment forces a16z to adhere even more firmly to ultra-long-cycle fundamental investing. Projects that genuinely create immense commercial value invariably require a decade or even two decades of polishing. If a founder’s sole motivation for entering this space is to cash out at the peak after a token listing surge to buy yachts and waterfront mansions, such entrepreneurs driven purely by short-term financial extraction absolutely cannot withstand the brutal tests required to survive across market cycles.

Host: In the early startup phase lacking comprehensive financial statements, how do you accurately identify and filter out the successful founders who truly possess the DNA of “long-termism”?

Jad Wahab: We employ an intuition-defying set of criteria when evaluating founders. Psychological research shows that a person’s accuracy in predicting a close friend’s personality test results is often surpassed by a complete stranger who merely observes them in their living room for 10 minutes. Close friends’ minds are flooded with excessive subjective projection, emotional bias, and preconceived false visions; whereas objective, neutral observers can capture the most authentic behavioral evidence from straightforward physical facts.

We have identified two extremely clear common denominators among highly promising top-tier founders:

First, unconventional top-tier magnetic attraction (Talent Magnet). This charm is absolutely not loudmouthed networking or eye-catching secular social maneuvering at parties. Instead, it’s when top engineers, scientists, and business partners look at him and are genuinely captivated by his vision and scale, desperately wanting to join his journey regardless of cost to build something extraordinary together.

Second, a near-obsessive love for “playing the game itself,” rather than utilitarian obsession with winning or losing. Tennis legend Andre Agassi painfully confessed in his autobiography that he actually despised tennis but forced himself to the top through a ruthless compulsion to win; when Novak Djokovic was asked why he started playing tennis, his answer was unusually simple: “I just purely love the beautiful feeling when the racket hits the ball.” Founders who can truly navigate a decade-long valley of death to build great enterprises are usually Djokovic-type individuals. They view the day-to-day, craftsman-like process of building exceptional products as the highest reward themselves. For them, “the only reward for doing a job to its absolute extreme is earning the right to do more and harder jobs.” This intrinsic drive defies explanation by any purely financial incentive model.

Endgame Projections: Full-Chain Wall Street, Energy & Compute DePIN, and the “Post-Crypto” Era

Host: Having discussed the founder’s foundational core, let’s turn our gaze to current specific investment tracks. Looking across today’s crypto market, what direction are you personally and a16z Crypto most bullish on, and where are you allocating the most effort?

Jad Wahab: In the short to medium term, the areas demonstrating the strongest real Product-Market Fit (PMF) remain financial infrastructure and next-generation capital markets applications.

Currently, the most unstoppable trend is the explosion of stablecoins. At their core, stablecoins represent a foundational upgrade to the global financial system. There is massive, genuine hunger globally for USD liquidity. Whether in developing nations ravaged by hyperinflation or emerging economies restricted in capital flows, blind spots in traditional central banking and cross-border settlement systems are widespread. Stablecoins provide billions of people unable to smoothly access Western traditional financial networks with a near-zero-friction, anti-depreciation savings and payment mechanism. Quarterly on-chain settlement volumes reaching hundreds of trillions prove it is not merely a speculative tool, but humanity’s most efficient cross-border clearing network to date.

Around next-generation on-chain finance, we are heavily focusing on the following core directions:

Next-generation decentralized exchanges (DEXs) and underlying liquidity infrastructure: including block credit mechanisms, derivatives protocols, prime brokerage services, and liquidity aggregation routing;

Prediction markets and advanced derivatives networks: encompassing options, structured notes, and perpetual swap mechanisms;

On-chain wealth management tools for non-traditional ultra-high-net-worth individuals: serving populations that have accumulated massive on-chain digital assets but fall outside the scope of traditional private banks.

Beyond pure on-chain finance, another strategic direction I am pouring massive energy into is DePIN (Decentralized Physical Infrastructure Networks), particularly energy grids and distributed compute markets.

The rapid iteration of current AI large models faces extremely lethal physical bottlenecks—power shortages and constrained supply of advanced-process chips. Relying solely on traditional tech giants to autonomously build nuclear plants and supercomputing centers via centralized balance sheets hits a clear ceiling on capital allocation efficiency. Decentralized blockchain protocols can coordinate third-party energy producers and idle compute nodes scattered globally using exquisitely precise token-economic models, achieving the most efficient distributed capital allocation in the physical world. If third parties outside the Magnificent 7 tech giants want to claim a seat at the table in global energy and compute markets, blockchain is the irreplaceable foundation.

Host: In on-chain financial products, why do perpetual swaps (Perps) demonstrate such astonishing growth momentum and user stickiness? What exactly makes them unique?

Jad Wahab: The core of perpetual contracts lies in their minimalist, intuitive design and extremely high capital utilization efficiency. Essentially, they are “Delta 1” linear derivatives offering high financial leverage, meaning if the underlying asset moves X%, the contract value strictly moves X% multiplied by the predetermined leverage multiplier, devoid of the complex time-value decay (Theta) or implied volatility surface payoffs found in traditional delivery options. Whether for professional high-frequency traders or retail investors, they serve as highly intuitive risk hedging and directional exposure tools. Crucially, in decentralized on-chain perp markets, traders match directly against transparent liquidity pools or smart contracts, completely eliminating the default risk and platform misconduct associated with traditional centralized brokerages acting as intermediaries.

Host: You once drew a brilliant analogy: blockchain is bringing traditional finance into the digital age. What is the fundamental advantage of converting traditional financial assets into on-chain assets?

Jad Wahab: The core advantage boils down to two words: efficiency.

Just as email represents a dimensional strike compared to physical postal mail, or Excel spreadsheets disrupted manual paper ledgers, the differential in circulation efficiency brought by digitization operates on an order-of-magnitude level.

Vast majority of Wall Street’s current work essentially consists of thousands of cross-institutional traders repeatedly verifying and manually reconciling accounts on isolated local Excel sheets. Traditional financial institutions harbor countless fragmented, incompatible proprietary databases and clearing gateways. Imagine suddenly a publicly distributed “super spreadsheet” opens to everyone across the network, achieving instantaneous global consensus with absolute deterministic state updates. All financial institutions could atomically settle on the same underlying ledger without needing to trust each other, eliminating trillions in settlement friction costs.

Blockchain uses permissionless decentralized consensus to ultimately answer the foundational ledger attribution question: “who has the right to read, who has the right to modify, and how is double-spending fraud prevented?” While Wall Street institutions might avoid openly using the ideological term “decentralized” due to compliance considerations, they possess fiercely strong practical interest in “eliminating counterparty default risk, smoothing cross-institution settlement delays, and removing single-point failure risks.”

Ultimately, the victory sign for this industry is complete “delabeling.” When you pick up your phone today, wear an Apple Watch to connect to the network, or shop online, you would never shout to others, “I’m using the TCP/IP internet!” Similarly, in the future, when people use cross-border transfers, credit lending, or asset allocation, the underlying mechanics will all automatically execute via smart contracts on blockchain, and the general public will cease even mentioning terms like “cryptocurrency” or “Web3.”

Host: How long do you expect this complete overhaul of financial infrastructure will take?

Jad Wahab: This is absolutely not a two-or-three-year sprint, but a profound paradigm reconstruction spanning decades.

Over the next two to three years, we will see global circulating US dollar cash and offshore settlement funds convert into on-chain stablecoins at even more startling speeds. Over the next 10 to 20 years—or even longer—the vast majority of core securities, fixed-income instruments, and derivatives in global capital markets will completely undergo on-chain mapping and tokenized settlement. Counting from the birth of the internet in the 1990s, comprehensive global digitization is a century-scale historical process, and blockchain stands as the decisive link in storming the core financial settlement network within this progression.

A Life Beyond Investing: Intentional Abstract Paintings and Philosophies of Men’s Tailoring

Host: When you step away from hardcore financial architecture, crypto token economics, and high-intensity project evaluations at work, what does your daily life look like? Do you have any lesser-known hobbies in your spare time? You mentioned earlier that letting a complete stranger walk into someone’s apartment often reveals their true character at a glance. If someone walked into your home right now, what would they see?

Jad Wahab: This might create a massive contrast for many people. If someone walked into my apartment, their first impression might be that it’s inhabited by an elementary school art teacher. Various colorful, seemingly utterly casual paintings hang everywhere on the walls. I’ve passionately loved painting oil paintings over the past few years; it’s the most vital outlet for creativity release in my life.

Host: What do you paint? Realistic still lifes or natural landscapes?

Jad Wahab: Entirely clumsy abstract paintings, and many are deliberately painted that way.

In a venture capitalist’s career, nearly all work rests strictly on quantitative metrics, absolute objective facts, logical closure, and market feedback. The commercial market operates under ruthlessly cruel objective laws that absolutely disregard your subjective emotions. Painting is the exact opposite: when facing a blank canvas, the only thing that matters is your internal experience and pure joy during the creative process. It doesn’t need to cater to any external market judgments. This pure flow state, completely unaligned with rational market expectations, is a healing process I deeply enjoy.

Host: As we wrap up the show, as usual, I’ll ask a quirky question tinged with your personal quirks: Is there anything trivial to others that you hold absolutely obsessive, uncompromising standards for?

Jad Wahab: Yes, namely that the vast majority of pants men wear are terribly ill-fitting, too narrow and tight.

Over the past twenty years, pop culture has been absolutely dominated by specific haute couture trends and skinny tailoring. People of all ages and body types have been wearing excessively tight slim-fit jeans or track pants clinging tightly to their legs. It wasn’t until two years ago that it struck me: for over twenty years of my life, I’ve almost exclusively worn shoes in the wrong size and extremely ill-fitting trousers. It’s not just pants; modern off-the-rack men’s shirts are often made disproportionately long, with hems frequently hanging three to four inches below normal fitting standards, forcing many men to awkwardly stuff their shirttails into their waistbands to maintain proper proportions. The standard sizing patterns adopted by the mass apparel industry during bulk production severely deviate from the actual skeletal proportions of the vast majority of men.

Host: Haha, I completely didn’t expect you to hold such systematic and intense personal views on men’s clothing tailoring!

Jad Wahab: I really shouldn’t have delved so deeply into this on a public podcast, because the cut of the pants I’m wearing today probably isn’t perfect either. I estimate that after this episode airs, I’ll be mercilessly mocked by various fashion influencers on Twitter.

Host: This has been an exceptionally clear and profoundly insightful conversation. Thank you so much for your honest sharing today!

Jad Wahab: Thank you so much for having me, it’s been a wonderful chat!

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